IRC record Saturday 15 17 Facts session
[14:50] == Lilaroja [5ee5c683@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.229.198.131] has joined #dimmons
[14:50] <Lilaroja> Hello!
[14:51] <SMP-ca> hello!
[14:52] == DarTar [~DarTar@wikimedia/DarTar] has joined #dimmons
[14:53] == mako [~mako@bork.hampshire.edu] has joined #dimmons
[14:53] <mako> hi there
[14:54] <SMP-ca> hi
[14:54] <DarTar> hey folks
[15:01] <DarTar> streaming seems pretty broken, or is it just me?
[15:01] <mako> DarTar: reload it
[15:02] <mako> DarTar: it was broken, but it just started working for me
[15:02] <SMP-ca> it's working for me
[15:02] <DarTar> ha, indeed
[15:04] <mako> so, i sent some videos to Lilaroja yesterday
[15:05] <DarTar> brilliant
[15:06] <mako> but i never got an email back fromher
[15:07] <mako> DarTar: it's a very short vresion of http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/events/luncheon/2011/10/makohill
[15:07] <mako> which i guess i will give at WMF next week
[15:08] <DarTar> ping her? Lilaroja
[15:08] <mako> DarTar: i did
[15:08] <mako> DarTar: probably on wed afternoon, it seems
[15:08] <DarTar> sounds good
[15:10] <mako> speaking of sounding good
[15:10] <mako> ok, fixed
[15:19] <Lilaroja> Hula
[15:19] <Lilaroja> We are starting the session now. Sorry little delay
[15:20] <Lilaroja> Could you see the streaming?
[15:20] <DarTar> hoi Lilaroja
[15:20] <DarTar> yes works fine
[15:20] <mako> Lilaroja: yes
[15:20] <Lilaroja> Hula Dario!
[15:23] == Dimmons [5ee5c683@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.229.198.131] has joined #dimmons
[15:23] <Dimmons> hi
[15:23] <Dimmons> You can join #dimmons in streaming. http://ur1.ca/5jpo6
[15:24] <Dimmons> en: After introductions starts "facts & research on participation in collaboration communities" session
[15:24] <Dimmons> es: Mayo Fuster explica la dinámica de trabajo de esta tarde #dimmons
[15:25] == IA_ [5ee5c683@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.229.198.131] has joined #dimmons
[15:26] <IA_> listening Eric Zachte
[15:27] <DarTar> Wikimedia Research Index: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research
[15:28] <DarTar> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Committee
[15:30] <DarTar> I know this animation but it would be good for the streaming to show the slides, not just the speaker
[15:32] <DarTar> thanks
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[15:34] <Lilaroja> Dario now the streaming is also with slides, no?
[15:34] <DarTar> yep
[15:38] <mako> Lilaroja: did you get my email with the videos?
[15:38] <Lilaroja> Yes Mako
[15:38] <mako> Lilaroja: is it all fine?
[15:38] <Lilaroja> You are second, get ready Mako!
[15:39] <mako> Lilaroja: um, hopefully i'm not going to do anything :)
[15:39] <Lilaroja> When we tried it worked out
[15:39] <mako> Lilaroja: ok sounds good
[15:39] <Lilaroja> Thanks everybody for being here
[15:40] == lluis_tgn [53204932@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.32.73.50] has joined #dimmons
[15:40] <Lilaroja> Hello Lluis_TGN!
[15:41] <Lilaroja> I am connected from Barcelona, you?
[15:41] <lluis_tgn> aix
[15:41] <lluis_tgn> from Tarragona Lilaroja
[15:42] <Lilaroja> Others?
[15:43] <mako> san francisco (yawn)
[15:43] <SMP-ca> Barcelona (In a few minutes I will go out to the CCCB)
[15:44] <Lilaroja> See you now SMP
[15:44] == marcat [5ee5c683@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.229.198.131] has joined #dimmons
[15:45] <DarTar> san francisco (coffee)
[15:46] <DarTar> Lilaroja: is the Catalunyan wiki survey documented in the research index?
[15:48] <Lilaroja> Dario will ask Marc who did it
[15:48] <DarTar> great
[15:48] <Lilaroja> I mean I will ask him to put it at the research index
[15:50] <Lilaroja> Sending call to add research to Wikipedia Research Index though social media
[15:52] <DarTar> Lilaroja: is Samer attending today?
[15:52] <Lilaroja> #dimmons Have you ever done research on Wikipedia or wikipedia relevant research? Add it to Wikimedia Research Index: meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research
[15:52] <DarTar> and Bastien?
[15:52] <Lilaroja> Yes, he was here
[15:53] <Lilaroja> Don't see him now
[15:53] <DarTar> shame
[15:53] <Lilaroja> We distributed Move Commons stikers in the registration and tomorrow they are facilitating a sesion on MoveCommons
[15:53] <Lilaroja> Idem Bastien
[15:53] <DarTar> cool
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[15:55] <mako> hey folks
[15:55] <mako> videos are here:
[15:55] <mako> http://epicenter.media.mit.edu/~mako/digcom/
[15:55] <DarTar> stream him
[15:56] <mako> start both vieos simultaneously
[15:56] <mako> i'm actually not going to talk about that :)
[15:57] <DarTar> pre-taped videos streamed to the audience remind me of our prime minister's strategy
[15:57] <DarTar> :)
[15:57] <mako> i just taped it last night :)
[15:58] <DarTar> never tried it myself, but sounds like a good solution for early remote attendance
[15:58] <mako> oh no
[15:58] <mako> my streaming just stopped
[15:58] <DarTar> streaming just dropped?
[15:59] <mako> DarTar: is that a question or a statement?
[15:59] <mako> if its a question: YES
[15:59] <DarTar> maybe it's intentional to force people to check out the videos
[16:01] <mako> oh, it's back
[16:03] <DarTar> could it be that most of SF projects are not really trying to build a community?
[16:04] * DarTar thinking of the github model used as a code dump by many individual users
[16:04] <mako> DarTar: i have github data as well
[16:04] <mako> DarTar: in github, the better measure of collaboration is number of branches
[16:04] <DarTar> right
[16:04] <mako> DarTar: or even number of watchers
[16:04] <mako> DarTar: median number: 1
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[16:05] <mako> DarTar: it's actually even more skewed that sf data
[16:05] <DarTar> not surprising, and sort of supporting my point
[16:06] <mako> DarTar: i don't follow how?
[16:07] <mako> DarTar: it's certainly true that many people starting projects have low expectation or don't care very much that folks don't show up
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[16:07] <DarTar> > code dump platform used by many individual users with no real need to build a community of developers
[16:07] <millosh> here i am
[16:08] <mako> DarTar: well, there are many ways to just publish codd
[16:08] <mako> DarTar: just publish code
[16:10] <mako> DarTar: my understanding of interviews and surveys in these communities supports the idea that people aren't upset that they didn't build big communities
[16:10] <mako> DarTar: and are still willing to call their project successful, even though they didn't mobilize
[16:11] <DarTar> right
[16:11] <mako> DarTar: but that's not the same thing as not trying or not attempting
[16:11] <mako> DarTar: people still write development documentation, still list ways to contribute, etc
[16:11] <DarTar> I suspect it's hard to tease apart the two from the data
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[16:13] <DarTar> aren't these best practices for FLOSS (meant for reuse and extension) not necessarily steps to build a community?
[16:13] <mako> but we aren't seeing re-use and extension either
[16:14] <DarTar> not on these platforms, agreed
[16:14] <mako> DarTar: github branching is not community building (at least in the same way) and we don't see that either :)
[16:14] <mako> DarTar: not in the large majority of codebases under free licenses
[16:14] <mako> but i think intention of the creators doesn't actually matter to my argument
[16:15] <DarTar> right, but that assumes that reuse happens on RCS
[16:15] <Lilaroja> Plas plas plas Mako!!!!
[16:15] <mako> DarTar: there would have be order of magnitude more re-use outside of visibility to even make the median more than 1 :)
[16:15] <Lilaroja> Thanks you
[16:15] <DarTar> anyway, point taken, interesting question – it'd be nice to see other metrics included signaling the intention to build a community
[16:15] <Lilaroja> Very interesting!
[16:16] <mako> so i agree that's important
[16:16] <mako> so, i guess there are two answers
[16:16] <mako> this is a very good question :)
[16:16] <DarTar> (did I mention ohloh's data in haifa?)
[16:16] <mako> i know about ohloh's data
[16:16] <mako> i don't think you mentioned it
[16:17] <mako> my impression was that it is really uneven
[16:17] <mako> very different datacollection in different parts of it
[16:17] <DarTar> true, I got a large dump from them 2 years ago which came with this caveat
[16:17] <mako> i have that graph is like 2 dozen different differnet communites (i guess most of ohloh's dataset)
[16:17] <mako> and it's like a law of nature
[16:18] <mako> even if limit to projects with hundreds of downloads
[16:18] <mako> multiple releases
[16:18] <mako> established visible user-bases
[16:18] <mako> Lilaroja: thanks for the translation!!
[16:18] <Lilaroja> You welcome! Did you understand!
[16:18] <DarTar> Lilaroja: weird echo in the streaming right now, it was not the case before
[16:18] <Lilaroja> ?
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[16:19] <mako> Lilaroja: una mica
[16:19] <Lilaroja> :-)
[16:20] <Lilaroja> Now it is presentation on Wikipedia and emotions
[16:20] <mako> DarTar: so my argument is not fundementally with the model of free software/open source as sort of inherently collaborative
[16:21] <mako> DarTar: so it's basically the open source model
[16:21] <mako> DarTar: it is true that many people/firms relase their work freely with the idea that it will lead to community improvement
[16:21] <mako> DarTar: and the vast majority of those people are dissappointed
[16:22] <mako> DarTar: i think that is supported by data and, for whatever its worth, by my own experience
[16:22] <mako> Lilaroja: so so
[16:23] <mako> Lilaroja: should we do skype for the end, or just on irc?
[16:23] <DarTar> the interesting effect is that despite the occasional disappointment, the ecosystem at large benefits massively from code being published and shared
[16:24] <DarTar> so failure at community level != failure at ecosystem level
[16:24] <mako> DarTar: that's right
[16:25] <mako> DarTar: and for another reason as well
[16:25] <DarTar> so what is needed is probably better serendipity/discovery tools, not necessarily community building strategies
[16:25] <mako> DarTar: enormous number of attempts might also lead to a more comprehensive search of the design space as well
[16:25] <DarTar> ditto
[16:26] <mako> i suppose i think both things are important
[16:26] * DarTar needs more coffee, brb
[16:26] <mako> there are lots of things you can only really do when you have many people working together
[16:27] <mako> this is what Lilaroja calls "complexity" of collaboration
[16:27] <mako> or something like that. i'm sure she'll correct me if that's wrong :)
[16:30] <Lilaroja> I mean that complexity in online enveroment is habdle by fragmentation
[16:31] <Lilaroja> It is not about being together in the same place and time but being together though commons space and protocols but fragmented in groups
[16:32] <DarTar> Lilaroja: interesting, we just started a conversation at WMF on how the nature of online collaboration has changed over time
[16:33] <DarTar> I need to drop you a line on this, you may have some ideas of where to find data
[16:33] <mako> Lilaroja: yeah, i went to a lunch discussion and brought up your work :)
[16:33] <Lilaroja> Over time also FLOSS projects fragment into small project as they growth
[16:33] <mako> Lilaroja: what does that mean?
[16:34] <Lilaroja> That as project scale they tend to split into groups
[16:34] <DarTar> forks?
[16:34] <DarTar> or division of labour
[16:34] <DarTar> ?
[16:34] <mako> individual projects split into multiple smaller projects?
[16:34] <Lilaroja> Not forks, but distribution in projects
[16:34] <Lilaroja> connected projects. In the case of Wikipedia would be other wiki projects or other categories
[16:35] <mako> are you saying that ther proportion of projects that are small is higher today that it was before?
[16:35] <Lilaroja> But inside wikimedia universe
[16:36] <DarTar> OT - Lilaroja: can you pitch the Wikimedia Research Newsletter to the #dimmons crowd?
[16:36] <Lilaroja> ok
[16:36] <DarTar> next issue to go live this Monday and we're always welcoming contributors
[16:36] <Lilaroja> could you pass me the link?
[16:37] <DarTar> presentation is at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter
[16:37] <DarTar> draft of October issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2011-10-31 /Recent_research
[16:37] <Lilaroja> The question is about the distribution of articles per topics
[16:38] <DarTar> it'd be good to hear if we are missing anything important published last month
[16:38] <DarTar> mako: are you on twitter?
[16:39] <mako> identica
[16:39] <mako> https://identi.ca/mako
[16:39] <DarTar> k - syncing with twitter?
[16:39] <mako> secretly, i republish my identica feed on twitter, but i don't read messages there ever
[16:39] <Lilaroja> #dimmons There is a monthly newsletter on new insights on Wikipedia Research, see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia…
[16:39] <DarTar> ok
[16:40] <DarTar> ha you look good! https://twitter.com/#!/mako
[16:41] <mako> https://twitter.com/makoshark
[16:41] <Lilaroja> Yes, actually there is more discussion though Twitter, sorry
[16:41] <DarTar> feature mentioned by Erik is here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MoodBar
[16:41] <Lilaroja> I will introduce from the IRC the discussion we have on complexity to the audience
[16:42] <DarTar> and the mood feed shows up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FeedbackDashboard
[16:42] <DarTar> (only available to new accounts for the moment)
[16:45] <DarTar> Lilaroja: point the lady in the audience to the two papers discussed at wikisym on gender- specific work in wikipedia http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2011-09-26
[16:46] <DarTar> (if I understand her question correctly, lot of echo in the streaming right now)
[16:47] <mako> DarTar: weird, i don't hear lots of echoing
[16:47] <mako> DarTar: maybe restart it?
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[16:51] <DarTar> people should really read the GroupLens paper on gender gap in wikipedia as a baseline for further research
[16:51] <davidpar> hi!!
[16:51] <Lilaroja> ok
[16:51] <Lilaroja> Hi david!
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[16:52] <davidpar> Lilaroja com va???! :D
[16:52] <Lilaroja> Very well, missing you!
[16:52] <davidpar> Tomorrow I'll come :)
[16:53] * davidpar Que internacionals xD
[16:53] <Lilaroja> Are you haveing problems of connexions?
[16:53] <davidpar> I'm in the Palafrugell library. My wifi is broken :(
[16:55] <davidpar> Lilaroja: I have to bring something? eg: laptop, etc.? :S
[16:55] <mako> DarTar: omg! we're on TV!
[16:56] <DarTar> wow
[16:58] <DarTar> great point on micro-level and macro-level interaction Lilaroja
[16:58] * mako nods
[17:03] <DarTar> Lilaroja: over years the Wikipedia community built an amazing system of automated tools for the part of governance that deals with maintenance, not as much experimentation with bots for motivation/task allocation/serendipity
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[17:05] <mako> awesome!
[17:05] <mako> maybe i should have cofee too
[17:06] <mako> or go back to sleep? :)
[17:06] <mako> later!
[17:06] <DarTar> ciao
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[17:06] <Lilaroja> Ok
[17:06] <Lilaroja> Thanks everybody!
[17:06] <Lilaroja> Nice discussion
[17:07] <mako> thanks Lilaroja for making it so easy to participate remotely!
[17:07] <Lilaroja> We are going for a coffe, others to slepp
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[17:07] <Lilaroja> Thanks for contributing!
[17:07] <Lilaroja> Dario we will include in the final materials the inputs on Rcom resources
[17:07] <DarTar> excellent
[17:08] <DarTar> I'm off too, thanks for the great discussion, it was definitely worth the early wake
[17:08] <DarTar> (and let's follow up on the lists on the point of individualisation, I have a few ideas I'd like to discuss)
[17:09] <DarTar> bye
[17:09] == millosh [~millosh@wikimedia/Millosh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
[17:10] <DarTar> (ps Lilaroja: I am @readermeter on twitter)
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[17:52] <Raystorm_> hola? hello?
[17:54] <Raystorm_> se pueden hacer preguntas por aqui?
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[18:41] <PatrickG_> the live stream isn't working for me. Any suggestions?
[18:42] <PatrickG_> I tried all the options within the player, and I tried downloading the .OGG file and playing it with VLC. No luck yet.
[18:46] <Lilaroja> Hi!
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